Beyond Brave
Meet Kyla and Lyle Thomson, co-hosts of Beyond Brave. As parents to Bella Brave, who inspired the world with her courage, they spent over a decade navigating her rare medical challenges. Together, they've channeled their experiences into helping others find resilience and healing. On Beyond Brave, Kyla and Lyle share stories of hope, love, and the lessons they've learned—both through Bella's journey and in their everyday family life. Join them as they honor Bella’s legacy and inspire others to find light even in the darkest moments.
Beyond Brave
#09 - Conquering Blue Monday: Debunking Depression & Anxiety Myths with Anxiety Josh
In this episode of Beyond Brave, hosts Kyla and Lyle interview Josh Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, a BACCP registered therapist specializing in anxiety. With over 300K followers on social media, and as a bestselling author and host of the podcast Disordered: Anxiety Help (a UK Top 10 Mental Health podcast), Josh shares valuable insights into managing anxiety.
They discuss the science behind anxiety, personal experiences, and practical tools, including exposure therapy and strategies for handling intrusive thoughts. This episode is designed to provide listeners with encouragement and effective advice to face their anxiety challenges bravely.
IG: @anxietyjosh
www.schoolofanxiety.com
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Conquering Blue Monday: Debunking Depression & Anxiety Myths with Anxiety Josh
[00:00:00]
Introduction to Beyond Brave
kyla: Welcome to Beyond Brave. I'm Kyla, and here's where we dive into stories of hope, bravery, and laughter. Millions followed our journey with my daughter, Bella, but now it's time to go beyond the headlines and highlight reels to those raw, real moments I haven't shared anywhere else. So are you ready to go Beyond Brave?
Let's dive in.
beyond brave: But if you want it to be perfect, you can make
kyla: it perfect.
Meet Our First Guest: Anxiety Josh
kyla: Hi everyone, welcome back to Beyond Brave. I'm really excited to share with you our first ever guest on the show. He is an anxiety therapist. His name is Josh Fletcher, also known as at Anxiety Josh on Instagram and many of his socials. He's an author of so many books that have to deal with anxiety and how his tools help you fill your toolbox for issues with anxiety and mental health.
We cover [00:01:00] big topics like how to stop a panic attack and the science behind what anxiety does. I love, love, love this episode with Josh. I have followed him on his socials for a while. I started following him back when my anxiety was quite debilitating. And I'm really, really happy that he is our first guest on the show.
You're going to love all of his information and input on the topic. So, Without further ado, let's talk to Josh.
Well, thanks for taking the time to chat with us today. I, uh, I wanted to start by, by telling you something that I hope doesn't offend you, but I hope makes you really happy.
josh: Sure.
kyla: It's a weird way to start. Great way to start, just
josh: offending. I hope I don't offend you. I hope I don't offend you. I think all podcasts should start with offending the other person.[00:02:00]
kyla: Shit, that'd be a real fun way. Okay, well if this offends you, that's great.
Josh's Personal Journey with Anxiety
kyla: Uh, so when I I'm, I am, I, as you know, I am a medical mom and with, with my, um, daughter who has now passed Bella, she had a large medical life and we, we shared a lot online trying to help a lot of other families like ours. And so if you know our story for any listeners out there, anxiety was and has been a, uh, a real huge cloud in my life.
And when I. sought mental health support and, uh, spoke with a mental health nurse and started seeking support from myself. You were one of the first and most valuable I've found with my online supports. And I, what I wanted to say was, you have helped me and, and your community online and what you've done as an anxiety therapist has helped me so [00:03:00] much that, I'm not like constantly on your page anymore.
You're like, you've given me so many tools that I'm like, wait a minute. What's Josh up to these days? And so it's just, you've helped me so much that I've had to use you less. And I just think that's a testament to what you do for people. So thank you.
josh: Oh, thank you. No, that's absolutely a lovely thing to say.
That's what, uh, I mean, me and my, podcast, where we often say, like, You know, when you stop listening to us is when our job is done, you know, and it's nice people pop in now and then I wonder what they're up to. I'm doing the same things. It's all good here if you need us But it's better if you
kyla: don't, yeah, I don't
josh: think he offended him.
kyla: Okay, good. Our darn
josh: role. You did. I just, I just muted it and got all the expletives out of the way. You just abandoned Josh. [00:04:00] It's
lyle: like talking to my dad all over again.
beyond brave: So,
lyle: wait, do you want to unwrap that?
kyla: Uh, so I, uh, I was, uh, I'd like to formally introduce you. I know this is the first time my husband has met you.
I know, uh, this is, I'm so excited to have you today because. The amount of people on my community so excited to know that I'm talking to you and, and the amount of people in my community you're going to help is awesome. But for those that aren't familiar with you, I will introduce Josh. So joining us today is Josh Fletcher, better known as Anxiety Josh, on Instagram.
Based in Manchester, UK, right? Across the pond. Yeah. Uh, so Josh is an anxiety therapist, best selling author, and a passionate advocate for mental health. [00:05:00] You have written several impactful books. So a lot since I've, I was most familiar with your book, Untangle Your Anxiety, and I've found since then, you have also written Panic About.
Panicking About Panic, and your latest is And How Does That Make You Feel? Through his work, Josh provides practical tools and relatable insights that have helped countless people, including myself, untangle the challenges of anxiety and live much, much fuller lives. So thank you. Thank you so much, Josh. Uh, I wanted to mention, I know we have connected on socials for a few years now.
And, uh, our story, our story with Bella, um, on my socials. I was wondering, I was wanting to know what stood out to you, um, about our story.
josh: Um, I Followed, [00:06:00] um, the story of, of you guys and Bella in particular for a, for a, for a long time. And what I liked about it was, you know, Bella would often symbolize bravery and courage, um, for me personally.
Um, but also as well to kind of, I got a lot of encouragement from seeing how stoic her parents were, um, and how you guys dealt with that. Um, yeah, it touched a personal place to me as well. Um, I developed my anxiety disorder many years ago when I was looking after my little brother, who was in and out of hospital for several years, and he was terminally ill, and could relate to a lot of the life that you guys were doing.
And it was, um, it was inspiring to see it, and to see that strength from you all. And [00:07:00] also really on another level, uh, Bella made me laugh quite a lot. So, so I always put a smile on my face. Um, so yeah, I mean, that was, there was multiple reasons really. And, um, yeah, it was on a personal level, having been in a.
Similar situation, uh, like a primary, primary carer for my little brother, um, very medical life, you know, uh, I was working as well full time and then living in the hospital and then working in the living in the hospital, um, it's how I developed an anxiety disorder is what kickstarted my whole Um, so yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of why I followed along, inspiring encouragement, the smiles from it and, um, yeah, just, just following along and, and, and, and being part of it in some way.
Understanding and Managing Anxiety
kyla: We have definitely have so much in common and with [00:08:00] our entire community online with the amount of caregivers and medical moms and dads, uh, It's that much more valuable coming from you. So thank you for that. I wanted to
lyle: also ask a lot knowing that, you know, came from similar circumstances where you can kind of.
You can kind of see what, what they're going through because you've been in the same situation.
josh: Yeah, I lived in, I remember I lived in a children's hospital for two months, two and a half months. Once they even set me up a bedroom in the back and I'd go there and I'd, and I'd, um, yeah, I'd shower and do all that.
And then I go to my stressful job, come back and yeah. Um, being in that role is stressful enough. Um, and then on top of that and then, yeah, I mean, that's. I still remember the day I, I developed an anxiety disorder and my whole world, you know, a nervous breakdown or whatever it was. Uh, I never intended to be a therapist, but it was during that time where I was like, wow, I hit rock bottom and didn't realize my [00:09:00] brain and thoughts and anxiety could do this.
I thought anxiety
kyla: Or how did you, how did you know, or did you know at that time it was a developing or Anxiety disorder. I
josh: remember the moment it happened. Yeah. I was, uh, very common. People will experience this particularly in similar situations. Um, I went to work one morning, I woke up quite with a lot of energy, which was weird because I wasn't getting a lot of sleep.
Woke up with a lot of energy, and I was like, I feel oddly quite hyper. Um, got to work, started making a cup of tea, and as I was stirring my cup of tea Whack. I just was hit by the symptom called dissociation. I was like, I felt like I wasn't in the room. It's called derealization, depersonalization. I didn't know that at the time.
Um, everything looked weird. Uh, I felt weird. My voice didn't feel like mine. People's faces looked like clay. Felt like I was in the Matrix or something. And it freaked me [00:10:00] out. And then I had a panic attack. My first proper panic attack. Um, I went home. I tried to, I was like, I'm obviously not very well, thought I was going crazy or something like that.
I thought I was dying, um, developed agoraphobia, didn't leave the house for weeks. Um, and I was constantly worried about how I felt scared of other powers. I'm panic attack after panic attack. Um, and then on top of that, the internal critic, you know, he's supposed to be a carer for your brother and all that stuff.
Yeah, I had a really rock bottom place, but I remember that moment. Yeah, it was that moment, that moment, just having a cup of tea, whack, this panic, dissociative panic attack. Um, very common, but back then I was like, what the hell is going on with me?
beyond brave: Um,
josh: yeah, it was, uh, it's really common, like one in five of us experiencing anxiety disorder like that.
But
beyond brave: I went
josh: to my doctor. I said, doctor, I don't feel like I'm in the room. I feel like I'm in the matrix. My thoughts are weird and intrusive and I feel constantly scared. And he's like Um, [00:11:00] okay, sounds like a bit of anxiety,
beyond brave: took
josh: medication, made me feel worse. I was in a horrible place. Yeah. And so much so that when I overcame it, learned about it, um, I took my skills as work from working in schools and, uh, yeah, uh, dedicated my career to psychoeducation and educating people on anxiety and letting people feel seen.
And. They're not going crazy and they are, they are actually tolerating more than they think
kyla: I can. I can definitely say with the terms that you've used and the scientific background that you use, and understanding that you say, even with my own understanding of disordered anxiety and a couple of the terms that you just used right now, it was immensely helpful in understanding that.
Uh, so
lyle: how long ago was that, Josh, that you had that episode? Oh,
josh: about 12 years ago now, I think. Yeah. I was in my. Yeah, yeah. Young twenties. It was [00:12:00] 12 years ago and not many people talk about it properly, you know, particularly in this day and age is now it becomes convoluted and weird. And I like to keep things simple, uh, because when you're anxious, you need things simple.
And often the problem is simple, but because your, our brains are so, uh, imaginative, and we're bombarded with constant information, we end up ruminating, trying to problem solve and keeping ourselves in an anxious state. Um, the upside of developing an anxiety disorder before the, the, the impact of like Instagram and stuff like that was that I had to find help.
I found help in like books and stuff. So my hero, Claire Weeks, wrote a book, Hope and Help for Your Nerves, really resonated with me, found another couple of similar books that. But I kind of thought, Oh, wow, this is this is what I'm experiencing, you know, uh, and then I could kind of work out what was going on.[00:13:00]
And then I did the work to get better. Um, now though, in the age of scrolling, tick tocking, things like that, you type in anxiety or even Google it, your feed is bombarded with. Nonsense about, you've got this, you're this, 10 signs of trauma, 10 signs of this, 10 signs you've got that, it could be that, you need to get the root of that, and it just adds to this maelstrom.
What I do is like to keep things simple, keep things science evidence based, and to let people know that they are okay, and you know, you won't always feel like this forever.
kyla: Yeah, that really, that is exactly what helped me. I noticed very similar panic attacks. And when I learned. Um, the scientific terminology you use, like for example, I had driving anxiety and it would be debilitating, and then I learned exposure therapy and I learned scientifically what was happening in my [00:14:00] body when I would feel, for example, the adrenaline rising.
And me telling, before I could tell myself, this is your body's reaction to an irrational fear, you're not being chased by a bear, but your heart rate is going up and the adrenaline is spiking, but you're okay, you're not going to die. And before I could really get that full understanding, it was always, I'm going to die, I'm going to black out, I'm going to have a heart attack.
And I would go to the doctor and say, what is medically wrong with me? These are all my symptoms. And he, I, a great doctor helped me work through and be like, no, like, this is anxiety and, um, or an anxiety disorder and, uh, this is This is what's going on. You're not going to die.
josh: That is a good doctor. That is a good doctor.
I wish my doctor said
lyle: that. A real, like, sort of similar panic attack, I guess, instance, that's when, you know, you remember that just like Josh remembers his very vividly. But I guess [00:15:00] You have these panic, panic attacks, but then separate symptoms associated with like, uh, you mentioned, Josh, that you developed agoraphobia, which is, is that a fear of basically leaving your house or
josh: yeah, um, agoraphobia is just the fear of having a panic attack outside of a safe space.
It's a fear of fear. Yeah, so I was afraid of panic attacks and so I felt that if I stayed at home, I could deal with them better and obviously all panic attacks end. It's okay if you struggle with panic attacks and you're listening. It's okay, it's just an adrenaline rush and it's supposed to feel a bit confusing, but you're okay.
Um, what, uh, agoraphobia happens when you have a panic attack and where the panic attack ends is usually where the brain wires to go, well, the threat ended there. So this is your safe space now. So yeah, a lot of people with, uh, agoraphobia are afraid to leave the house. But they could have mild agoraphobia as well, like [00:16:00] driving anxiety is a form of mild agoraphobia because you're afraid of losing control outside of a safe zone.
Um, behind the wheel it's like, Oh, you know, uh, what if I panic here? Or some people won't leave, they can, they can leave the house, but they won't leave their town or they'll go to work or there'll be specific safe zones on the map that they can go to, or they won't stray too far from their car. It's the fear of fear.
Um, outside of a safe zone, um, it can present in many ways people avoiding sitting in the middle aisle at the movie theater, um, people always trying to find the fire exit, you know, when they're in a building, just the need to escape people who won't enclose themselves at a restaurant because they need just in case they need to go run and panic somewhere.
Uh, yeah, agoraphobia, panic, panic disorder, fear of fear. It's, it's all around that. And yes, I. Struggled with a lot. I'm all right now because I've done the exposure work. Um, like Kylie said, [00:17:00] but you know, when you don't know, it's a very confusing, weird place.
beyond brave: Yeah. What do you
josh: mean by exposure work? So I best explain exposure work, um, by explaining about the brain's threat response.
So everyone has a threat response. Everyone, everyone who everyone experiences anxiety, everyone has a threat response. You will experience that threat response in response to it. A subjective threat to you. So if you're a kid and you're bitten by a dog and it frightened you Your threat response, the amygdala, will encode a memory that dogs are dangerous, you know?
And for the person who hasn't been bitten by a dog, they don't understand that because their threat response doesn't fire off. Two completely different experiences. To overcome that fear of you would use exposure therapy. So you'd start by looking at pictures of dogs or going to the [00:18:00] park and seeing them from far away or watching movies, um, about the dog.
Uh, and this applies to all anxiety, by the way, not just fear dogs applies to panic attacks, applies to pretty much all anxiety.
lyle: So like what movies would you, would you use Cujo or would you watch Lassie? Or would you start with the last thing? I go
josh: old school, I go homeward bound. Oh, okay, so
lyle: something nice and easy though.
Okay.
josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, it's stuff like that. But then you build up and build up. And the more you build up, the more the amygdala rewires, because you're willing to be anxious, but not run away or do a behavior that tries to get rid of the anxiety. It's the same as when Kyla was learning to drive again properly.
So I'm willing to drive and feel. My amygdala activated because I'm rewiring and you can only rewire the amygdala when it's when you're scared Whereas a lot of the information out there is Here's five [00:19:00] ways to stop panic and anxiety Well, no, actually step one is be anxious and do what you non anxious You would do and the brain will rewire and it takes a lot of courage And that's kind of what exposure therapy is.
So for me When I couldn't leave the house, I started just walking to the end of my street, whilst anxious. And I kept going and then suddenly the street was okay. Then I got in the car or got the bus and then that was okay. And then I realized, hold on. I'm actually just practicing with the fear of fear here.
It's not where I am. I just don't like feeling anxious. Uh, and yeah, so that's principles of exposure therapy.
kyla: Yeah. That, oh, that's so, so needed and so valuable and everything I've experienced and what I've gone through and it just, it matters so much. I remember. When you had posted a video about, I, I believe you were, uh, going through exposure therapy and you were posting a video about yourself getting on a plane.
And, [00:20:00] uh, I resonated with that. That resonated with me so much because I had that fear, that same fear of flying. And here I am with my daughter who needs an ambulance flight almost every other month and flying across country to see her medical teams. And it was like almost forced. Exposure therapy, if I could say that, I'm not sure if that's proper, but it worked and I don't, I don't have that fear anymore.
And seeing other people go through it, like you did, like you had shown helped big time.
josh: Yeah, it's good. And the principles still apply. Um, I get what you mean by forced and stuff. I mean, one of the, you know, I had to go have a lot of hospital trips myself and my brother, and it was like. You have to do this now.
Um, and obviously with anticipatory anxiety,
beyond brave: it will
josh: tell you, you can't cope, you'll break down, you can't do anything. But when you're in it, when you can tolerate the body just [00:21:00] throwing adrenaline and cortisol at you for 20 30 minutes, at it's peak. It will come down. That's the thing, a lot of people who struggle with anxiety believe, Oh, what if I'm stuck like this forever, or what if I'm going crazy?
No, like, anxiety, like all the other emotions, are transient. It doesn't last forever. It can't. It's physiologically impossible to last forever, because the body can't keep producing that amount of adrenaline. You know, uh, and it calms. And what I like to do is encourage people to realize that they are the coping technique.
You spend all this time looking for, you know, weird, um, things, remedies, techniques, herbs, whatever to calm your anxiety. And I'm like, no, that's own, that's having a counterproductive effect. It's actually saying anxiety is something to be feared and you have to avoid it. No, if it comes, it comes. When it goes, it goes.
It's okay. You, you are the person that tolerated it and the brain needs to know that.
kyla: Yeah, it, when you speak [00:22:00] about the brain rewiring itself and exposing and being in it to help rewire it, is there a difference between, because I have worried a lot about trauma rewiring my brain. I worry about that with being forgetful and just having the effects of long term stress as a medical parent.
Is it, are you able to, Rewire your brain from trauma or only rewire your brain from anxiety.
josh: It depends. You've got to be careful with the word trauma because it's vague. What does it mean?
beyond brave: Yeah.
josh: What does it mean for me, actually using the word trauma and bear in mind. I've been through a lot of trauma, so it wasn't helpful because it sends an inadvertent signal to me that I need to keep an eye out for something,
beyond brave: right?
josh: So if I'm going out and I mean, I've been through a hell of a lot [00:23:00] of trauma, you know, my brother ended up dying in my arms, my dad died a year later, it was all horrible.
beyond brave: Yeah.
josh: Now, metacognitive belief. I now have a thing that is trauma and I need to keep an eye on that. That facilitates in itself anxious behaviors.
Now don't get me wrong. If you have PTSD and you're having flashbacks.
kyla: I was just going to say that. Yeah.
josh: Yeah. If you're having flashbacks, not horrible memories, actual flashbacks, you're going to have horrible memories. Anyone who's grieving will have horrible memories. I have horrible memories.
beyond brave: Right.
josh: But if there's flashbacks, actual traumatic things, trapped, um, No.
I don't mean actual traumatic things. I mean traumatic memories that are stuck in the hippocampus of your brain and you're dreaming about them. They're constantly coming up, stuff like that. Your body goes into shutdown mode in weird places and in incongruous places. Then yeah, you look out for things like PTSD.[00:24:00]
But what you've got to understand, particularly with these late, with a lot of later narratives is I've been through all that horrible traumatic time, that must have left a damaging imprint on me. I would strongly challenge that as a therapist and be like, Okay, now don't get me wrong, it will make an emotional imprint on you, and it will change who you are as a person, holistically.
But what do we mean by, I must be careful with my, I'm scared my trauma is breaking me down.
beyond brave: Those
josh: definitions can be quite dangerous and bear in mind we are surrounded by it in the popular sphere. So you got a lot of people coming in talking about trauma and for me as a therapist, I would sit there and go, what does trauma mean to you?
And when people say, I've got trauma. I that means nothing to me. I want to know what that means to you if you think it's something that Facilitates anxious avoidant behaviors [00:25:00] like oh, I can't go to the music gig because I have trauma then I would question that But if you're up at night, night sweats.
Yeah, terrors. I'm stopping. I'm actually shutting down in certain things. I'm having nightmares. This memory keeps flashing into my brain. Uh, my body goes into shutdown when I have this certain smell that reminds me of that time. Mm-hmm . Then yeah, I would look, okay, this is post-traumatic stress, and we would definitely look at that properly and treat it appropriately.
kyla: There's a significant difference there, and that is eye-opening for me, so thank you.
josh: No worries. It's just my opinion. It's not a popular one in there, but like that's how I do it because you get it I did it myself. It made me unwell. I have obsessive compulsive disorder though so when I was training to be a therapist, there's a lot of trauma talk there and a lot of people talking about like the works of Bessel van der Kolk and Peter Levine and their restored trauma in my [00:26:00] body.
Now my obsessive compulsive disorder latched on to that I went into my training actually very content Despite all that traumatic stuff, I went in very, I'm ready to be a therapist now. I came out of my training feeling very unwell because my brain latched onto this notion that I have stored trapped trauma in my body that I need to exercise and get rid of.
And that all that facilitated was an obsessional behavior over wellness, over trying to optimize myself, over trying to do everything to make sure that I'm, I don't know, for the want of a better expression, clean, well, pure. But looking back, and lots of years of hard work, that narrative actually did not help me at all.
I was okay. It was the being fed that information that made me anxious, that I felt like I needed to do something. And looking back, yeah, I was sad. I have sad days. I grieve now, always will, but actually given the situation, it's doing all right. [00:27:00] Doing I was doing way better than what I thought I was if that makes any sense.
kyla: Definitely.
lyle: What do you mean by um, because we are bombarded by this especially men I think with over optimization And we have to be at a peak level or we're letting everyone down. Is that Is that just too much pressure do you think and and you're just tricking yourself or
josh: yeah, there's toxic wellness self optimization Culture Yeah, really if you look at if you look at it from a from a brain point of view from a self esteem point of view If you wake up every day and have a 10 step routine to self improve What are you inadvertently signaling to your brain your personality that you're not good enough because if each day you are excessively Trying to optimize yourself.
You're actually creating an anxious feedback loop, which is saying you're not good enough do more You're not good enough. Do more. You're not good enough. Do more Ironically having the opposite [00:28:00] effect now, don't get me wrong if you're doing it for the right reasons Like, you know what? I want to get healthier and fitter.
That's okay You know, I decided that in the new year standard go to the gym I want to be a bit fitter or I want to lose a bit of belly fat. I want to do That's okay, but you won't catch me at 4am staring at the sun from a 17 degree angle whilst I'm doing an ice bath and drinking a kale smoothie. Fuck that.
Sorry. That's great.
lyle: That's not healthy. We're totally bombarded with that. It is. Maybe it's just a new thing for men now. Women probably have always had that pressure. But I've drawn the line. I'm like, no, I'm not doing an ice bath. That's just, it's not going to freaking happen in my
josh: life. I was invited to a wellness festival last year and they were like, Josh, you're a therapist.
You're an anxiety guru. What, what do you do? What do you do to prepare for a talk to like today? What did you do last night? I was like, I [00:29:00] led in bed. I ordered a takeaway. I doom scrolled for a bit. I played a game on my phone and I fell asleep. And you know what? I'm here. I'm all right. I'm happy. I didn't know I didn't sometimes when I'm stressed, I like doing things, I do things like meditation, mindfulness, when I'm stressed because it's good to ground and things like that, but also like, it's okay to just exist.
I think you're winning at life when you're just existing as opposed to constantly doing if you're doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. Guess what? We all die, and you spend your whole life optimizing yourself for nothing. And you miss life going past, right in front of you, because you're doing some 10 step program, to, because you don't like who you are.
So you wanted to, don't get me wrong, you find the balance. What is it, what can I work on now that's better for me? Actually, yeah, I would like to focus on my attention. I would like to do a bit more reading, you know? Uh, I want to read Marcus Aurelius, because he was interesting, not because some [00:30:00] Bro influencer told me I should read about stoicism to make myself feel better.
Do it for you.
beyond brave: That's what I
josh: always say to people. Do it for you. Who are you optimizing for? And also apply it to self care. Self care is what you deem as self care. You know, a lot of people I hear, particularly anxious people, I've done self care. I've got rid, I've done the FODMAP diet and got rid of gluten and I'm doing this.
And my gut biome is 10, 000 million, gazillion and all this stuff. And I'm like, Has it made a difference to your anxiety? They're like, uh, no, actually the pressure adds to my anxiety. It's like, well, cool. You know, like I used to do all that stuff when I was anxious. Um, until the penny dropped for me one day when I went out for pizza with my friends and because I was engaged with talking to my friends.
Not obsessing about how I felt, not obsessing about my own anxiety. The pizza went down well. I didn't bloat, didn't have all these things. It was just, oh yeah. [00:31:00] But when I'm at home picking out a salad, trying to perfect my gut biome, I'd bloat, I'd freak out, I'd do all that because I'm trying, I'm forcing and rejecting emotions to, to chase this sense of optimization.
lyle: It sounds like, uh, you're shakes, hon.
beyond brave: Oh my word.
kyla: I have been there. I have been there. John, I've, you were like speaking, you always do, you always speak right to me. Uh, like our experiences are the same, but it was so bad. I, Lyle's referencing one time where I'm like, Oh my God, like, Oh, I gotta get my gut better.
I went through all the things. Even the chia seeds didn't realize that my body, like, fully rejected them. I
lyle: had to get after him, like, Kyla, you throw those damn chia seeds away. Clearly, they are a problem.
beyond brave: Because I tried to toy with them. You
lyle: do not need this shit in your life. I tried to toy
beyond brave: with them. It was terrible.
I don't
lyle: care what you read about chia seeds. You are not doing
josh: well on them. It's [00:32:00] why you're chasing it. Like, I know, like, I've got some nutritionist friends and they will eat chia seeds and stuff like that and that's great. And I will as well. Like, I will. It's about getting the balance right. Why are you doing this?
So, it'd be like, okay. Uh, I got some fermented food recently, a sauerkraut kimchi. I like it. I've heard it is good for my stomach, so I'll do it. Will, if I have a day not eating it, am I bothered? No. If, if I'm getting anxious and I've got this inner critic saying you're not chasing optimisation, then that's when you get stressed.
And ironically, when you're stressed, you don't digest food properly, and it has the opposite effect. Uh, it's just why you're doing it. And I just believe like I believe in adults that we know how to look after ourselves, we know eating healthy, exercise, rest and digest is important, but when we take it to the nth degree, it goes in on itself and backfires.
kyla: Yeah, definitely. I, um, so, On my online community, I had a [00:33:00] lot of people very excited that I was going to be able to speak with you today. And so going through all their notes and their questions, I accumulated the top five questions that people had if they could ask an anxiety therapist something. And I don't know if you have a guess on what my most asked question is.
I'm guessing you would probably know. Oh,
josh: things I What's
kyla: that?
josh: Is it health anxiety?
kyla: It's, it's the number one people, the number one question people would ask you.
josh: Okay.
kyla: How do you stop the spiral of an anxiety slash panic attack?
josh: Great. How do you stop the spiral from an anxiety slash panic attack? Um, it's interesting because you take your early assumptions.
Everyone thinks spirals go downwards. No, some spirals go upwards. Uh, you embrace the spiral. You don't stop a spiral. You can't stop a spiral if you went up to something, but you can Change the direction you don't stop a panic attack because like we've discussed in this podcast You [00:34:00] need to teach the brain that this adrenaline rush is okay.
Now if you're running deeper, yeah, if you're deep it will always end I promise you that but like you Usually land lasts about between 5 25 minutes, depending on how much you resist it. Um, but it will always end even if you resist it, you know. Um, you've got a load of adrenaline and cortisol, that's causing your threat response to frantically look for threats.
You might dissociate, feel weird, you'll feel the sudden urge to leave, go somewhere, do something about it, do something, do something, danger, danger. If you've had a panic attack and you're asking that question, you probably, this isn't anything new to you. So we're like, okay, what can I do differently this time?
Yes, I feel doubtful. Yes, I feel frightened. Well, that's what adrenaline does. So what I'm going to do, is I'm going to do practice the skill of willfully tolerating this. Once there's adrenaline and cortisol in your system, you cannot stop that. So when you see stuff like, end a panic [00:35:00] attack in one minute, it's nonsense because you can't stop those chemicals being in your body.
What you can do is envisage them being pumped around your body and they're burning out. What do I do now in that? You do what non anxious you would do the best you can. Try not to leave. And you, most, for most people, you know a panic attack's ending when you start yawning, you feel a bit tired, and that's okay.
But the key here is to acknowledge, hold on, I didn't use a technique. I didn't do all that. How did I get through that panic attack? And they're safe, they're just very uncomfortable. How did I get through that panic attack? Oh, it was me. I didn't need the ice cubes. I didn't need to count to ten and ground myself and all that stuff.
I just did my best to engage with anything, everything but how I feel. That signals brains to the, uh, sends signals to the amygdala. The amygdala then goes, Oh, you didn't need the [00:36:00] magic object. You didn't need to ring that safe person. You didn't need to do that. You tolerated it on your own. Brilliant. And then when you get another adrenaline rush, that won't feel ten out of ten, that'll feel eight out of ten.
And you do it again. And then you'll have another adrenaline rush, and it'll feel 10. And then you do it again, and then the next time you have one, you'll be like, Hold on, I'm, I'm getting the, I'm getting the grips of it. Yes, I don't like it, but I realize if I just let it do its thing, this is an opportunity for me to rewire my brain.
So, my best advice is, Alright, I'm having a panic attack now, so the next 20 minutes are gonna suck. How well can I willfully tolerate this? But if you resist it, what you resist persists. And that resistance just adds to the, to it. It will always pass regardless, so don't frighten yourself. But it's easier to let it peak and then it'll pass quicker and you're safe.
No one's ever died from panic attack. You don't go crazy. You're not going to collapse. You're not going to do all those things that the brain suggests. You are safe. You are fine.
kyla: Yeah. And that, that was number one for me, knowing, [00:37:00] like listening to you and listening to that, like on repeat when I would have them more often and just knowing it was going to end.
was almost enough for me. It was, it, it outsmarted all the snacks in my car because I thought my sugars were low. The, you know, the name on my phone ready to press, you know, the, the safe person I'm going to call if I'm on the middle of the road.
Understanding Panic Attacks and Safe Chemicals
kyla: And all the things. It out did all those just knowing it's going to end.
This is how my body's. Yeah. And that's
lyle: part of it is just acknowledging that it's happening. I like when you mentioned just visualizing those chemicals in your body are the thing that's creating this.
josh: Safe chemicals, safe chemicals that your body makes. So it's all made inside your body. Nothing's getting you.
Uh, and you'll get loads of what ifs. You know, what if I have a heart attack? What if I do that? What if, whatever, just let them come, you know, it's okay. Uh, they can feel convincing. I've rang ambulances in the past, think you're convinced, I was like, and [00:38:00] when you practice with them, you get better. And there's no, honestly, there's no better feeling when you have a panic attack and you do very little safety behaviors and it's just you and then you observe it pass.
Or there's, there is, that is a really lovely feeling. So encouraging to be a therapist is like, wow, I've tried everything to get rid of my anxiety, wait. Who'd have thought that I was the one that could tolerate it.
lyle: Right. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of training and, you know, exercising that just. Yeah, working on it yourself, just like you're, you know, x rays in your mouth, just
josh: do one, just do one.
If you can do one in a situation your confidence will Will increase but don't plan your life around panic attacks. That's how agoraphobia starts and and other compulsions like if you're someone who constantly monitors for their anxiety Am I anxious now? Is a panic attack coming? What's that symptom?
You're creating a [00:39:00] feedback loop to your brain to suggest that anxiety itself is a threat. It's not. I was like that for years. It's boring. You go round and round. Life sucks. Practicing with your attention, both when you're not anxious and when you're anxious, is so important.
Medication and Anxiety: A Nuanced Discussion
lyle: What, it seems that there's a lot of internal work that, that you're advocating and that you've Understand now, where do you land with medications and medicating?
Is that a last resort for,
josh: um, I can't comment too much on medication. Um, because it depends on your physician, doctorate stuff. Uh, I am against benzodiazepines for panic disorder and fear of fear. Uh, one, cause they're highly addictive. And two, you don't, you do the opposite of teaching yourself you can cope with uncertainty by nullifying it.
Um, that's why in the UK, very rare. Benzodiazepines are [00:40:00] prescribed. Uh, no doctor will prescribe you Xanax or, and if they do prescribe you Valium, it's for pain. They will not prescribe, oh, they'll prescribe very little for like a phobia, maybe. So if you can't get on a plane, they'll give you a Valium and very limited amount.
Uh, but it's not part of anxiety recovery here. But, if you're depressed, you need antidepressants because your brain, you feel depressed, you've got all that stuff and, and you've got anxiety. Then yeah, you know that that can work really well. Sometimes you need a bit of a You know, a bit of an oomph in the brain and a bit of shutting off that internal critic and a bit of bounce in your step to do the tricky things.
So it's nuanced. You can be medicated for whatever it is, but the only one I really kind of go against is, is, is benzodiazepine, uh, for a generic panic disorder.
lyle: Right. But it sounds, it sounds like, yeah, you're exactly right. It's nuanced. But if [00:41:00] you are having anxiety and you're not. Actively trying to work on it and accepting it and it happening and, you know, doing what you kind of just went over your, you're never going to quite get better.
It sounds like it with just relying on medication.
josh: Yeah, I think some people, it depends what the person wants to do. So if some people are quite happy to live their life. Be agoraphobic, whatever, uh, and I know people like this and they're quite content. They can access joy, they can access their life, and they're medicated, and that's cool.
I mean, I would never tell someone that that's the wrong thing. Or the, but for the people who know, like, kind of deep down, I don't, I want, I want more than this. Then, yeah, I would question that, because ultimately, when you practice the skill of willfully tolerating your anxiety and uncertainty. By observing compulsions and things like that, by not avoiding and [00:42:00] in building yourself a bit at a time with compassion, then you do wire the brain to, and create a belief in yourself that you can tolerate.
Discomfort, something I had to do. I couldn't leave my room for two months. Then I couldn't leave my house for six months. And yeah, in the short term I was happy to avoid because I didn't like feeling fear. But then I realized there's a part of me that's like, no, I can do more than this. And that was the part that kind of got me out the door.
kyla: I was going to mention another, uh, real strong question from our followers.
Intrusive Thoughts and How to Manage Them
kyla: I would say this was the second most asked question is if you have any support for managing the intrusive thoughts, the negative thoughts, the repetitive thoughts, especially, um, when you're trying to sleep.
josh: Yeah. So one of the main anxious behaviors that we all do, but if you've got an anxiety disorder, you'll love this.
Uh, [00:43:00] is rumination, rumination and disputing thoughts, arguing with them. If you struggle with intrusive thoughts, it's often aligned and associated with OCD. You might not be strong enough to get a diagnosis with obsessive compulsive disorder. But it's, yeah, if you struggle, and I'm talking the nasty intrusive thoughts.
So like sexually inappropriate, violent, you know, very common in postpartum mothers, you know, like Uh, thoughts about kicking your kid down the stairs or just suffocating them, drowning them in the bar. I hear these every day from lovely people. Um, you know, inappropriate thoughts about that. Um, they're always bizarre, weird, existential.
They're intrusive. Hence why they're called intrusive. We don't want them, but they're there. Um, first tip is if you have an intrusive thought, Label it intrusive. You don't argue with an intrusive thought because you can't be rational with the irrational. And so people will lie in bed and they'll go, well, what does that mean about me?
Well, [00:44:00] it means nothing. But because it triggers the threat response, which is your doubt response, you're like, oh no, I need to give that attention. I need 100 percent certainty that that thought Doesn't mean anything about me or it doesn't mean I'm crazy or it doesn't mean anything then you've started rumination And this is when you're in bed till 4 or 5 a.
m And you realize well if I just think about a bit more If I go on reddit or Google and find reassurance if I ask for people for reassurance about this intrusive thought If I just keep thinking about it, I'll solve it No, because if your threat response is latched on to it it wants a hundred percent certainty and so it drives reassurance behaviors like If I just do one more Google thing, if I find that TikTok reel, if I go on that podcast or if I ask my partner or ask my family that I'm okay, if I do that, and you go round and round and round the OCD cycle, which is, I'm scared, intrusive thought, I'm scared, I don't want to feel scared, I do a behavior to try and find relief and [00:45:00] reassurance, but because it's not 100%, I get the intrusive thought, I feel scared, I don't want to feel scared, and you just go round and round and round.
And I've done that. Loads in the past. What I do now is like, Oh, that's a weird intrusive thought. Anyway, back to what I was doing.
kyla: Yeah. Yeah. I, would you, would you agree with this being? Um, helpful or not helpful. If when this has happened to me, I forced myself to think about something completely random and hilarious, like bubblegum or like the clouds being purple.
And I'm just like, I'll constantly repeat these things that are like happy and unrelated to what I'm thinking. Just trying to like trick my brain into thinking about something. Um,
beyond brave: it can
kyla: be,
beyond brave: I
josh: mean, if something works for you do it, but I would be like, no, because you're sure you're afraid of that thought.
So you're [00:46:00] actually inadvertently giving that thought importance. I use the analogy of, I use the analogy of you're driving in the car. Now you can let the intrusive thought sit up front with you, mess with the dials, um, change the radio, mess with the sat nav, tell you how to drive. That's annoying. You don't get rid of the intrusive thought, but you just ask it to sit in the back.
Just let it be there. Like, you just let it chat away, but your focus is always in your control. Your brain gets bored. Your thought will disappear. But if you force a thought away, it will stay. I mean, if I say to you, don't think of a leopard, bang, your brain, your brain has a leopard in it. You can't stop that.
Whatever you do, do not think of a leopard. If you think of a leopard, you will die. Can't think of that. Bang. Straight. There you go. That's how the brain works. So if you try and push it away, it will come back. Just keep coming back. But you allow the brain to get bored of thoughts and the anxious response [00:47:00] to get bored of thoughts.
So you just let it in, but where's your focus? So if I have an intrusive thought, I'm like, okay, I don't like that. I don't like how it makes me feel, but it can stay there just in my periphery. A bit like being in a restaurant, if you two go to a restaurant, you go in, it's loud, there's people talking, glasses clanging, plates, music, but five minutes in, you're sat there talking to each other, and you can't really hear anything else because of your focus, you're focused on what's important, and that's the person in front of you, you've not actively stood up and tried to silence the restaurant, and get frustrated and resist the noises, your brain can just channel it, Into the background noise, uh, and that's what you do with intrusive thoughts.
Oh, I'm having an intrusive thought about harming my loved one. All right. Okay. What was I doing? Yeah, well, it can stay there, but it doesn't ride up front and it's sitting over there in the restaurant. It's a
lyle: great analogy. [00:48:00] I like that. I like that too. Who hasn't experienced that at a restaurant? You know, think about pushing me down the stairs, please.
It's just so helpful. It's that exact same thing of acknowledging that this is an intrusive thought. This is a panic attack and just one understanding it and and I guess labeling it. That's probably like is part of understanding is important in the process. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool.
kyla: I found this next one really interesting.
Anxiety, Depression, and Support Strategies
kyla: I don't know if you get this asked a lot, but I had a lot of people wondering if anxiety is hereditary and why it often gets worse as we age. Are either of those true?
josh: I mean, there's always a genetic component to it because you're inheriting the nervous system of. And of your parents. So if your parents are anxious, then yeah, you're physically inheriting their nervous system.
Does it mean you'll develop an anxiety disorder? No. [00:49:00] Does it mean you're more predisposed? Probably yeah. It's the nature of the nurture argument. If you've got anxious parents as well, you're observing their behavior. And that can play a part and sometimes you just develop an anxiety disorder. Sometimes that's what just happens.
Statistically, you're more likely to develop an excessive chronic anxiety in your young 20s. Um, I think there's no coincidence in that. I mean, it's teenage, it's like 18 to 20, mid 20s. But you can develop an anxiety disorder any time. I know It's also common in perimenopausal and menopausal women because of the huge hormonal shifts and bodily changes and things like that.
Um, but yeah, you can just have something that the brain goes inwards on one day and you know, that's what happens, you know, sometimes it can play a part. I don't think it's important as a therapist. I'm not bothered if it's hereditary. I'm not bothered. It's not an, I don't see it as an illness. I see it as a condition [00:50:00] and conditions can be changed.
Um, and. I mean, yeah, sometimes I might ask, particularly if someone's got OCD, out of intrigue, does it run in your family? Yeah, my uncle does this and whatever, stuff like that. Is it required to know that to get better? No.
lyle: Right. I was, we were talking about earlier. Uh, Kyla and I, when we were planning this or kind of planning out our month and I was having a I'm having a rough month.
It's I think a lot of it is seasonal sort of being January in Canada after Christmas. So you have that Christmas hangover and we are talking about, you know, what we could do on the pod and talking about those sort of things is important. Um, we do have what we call blue Monday, which is kind of a pseudoscience, uh, thing where I think it's the 23rd.
kyla: The third Monday of January,
lyle: uh, is labeled as the [00:51:00] saddest day of the year. What are your thoughts on that?
josh: I don't know. I mean, maybe there's some stats behind it. I personally find the buildup to Christmas more measurable, particularly for grieving, uh, Christmas Eve, stuff like that. I personally, I mean, I try to embrace Christmas, but someone struggles with grief like you guys.
I find January a bit more of a, oh, I'm moving away from Christmas now. I'm delighted. All I've got is rubbish weather. Um, I'm not sure. Yeah, maybe. I don't really know. It seems like a faddy thing, doesn't it? Um. Yeah, and that's what we thought. They've drawn data from something. I don't know. I don't know too much about it.
But I, I don't. My alarm bells don't go off on a certain day. I think you can feel vulnerable at any time of the year. But yeah, it would make sense, wouldn't it? You know, we're all broke from Christmas. We've done all that. We've been eating crap, probably drank so much, done all that, doing all these things.
And then yeah, kind of makes sense. But for [00:52:00] me as a therapist, it doesn't really, I don't ever go, Oh, it's Monday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Better
lyle: look out for my clients. Is
kyla: it true in the UK? Like we're in Canada. So we're also in January, we're like, Oh, we haven't had our sunshine in like, how many months
lyle: it's always like,
kyla: is it always like that in the UK?
So,
josh: yeah, I mean, today's sunny, which is nice, but yeah, it's pretty, um, it's pretty naff
kyla: seasonal. What's your take on seasonal depression?
josh: Yeah, that's, that's a real thing. Yeah. Particularly with the depleting vitamin D levels. I take a vitamin D supplement. Because I know I'm not getting enough sun. Now, is that me being a toxic wellness bro?
No, that's my body is literally needs vitamin D. I would advise people to take vitamin D during the winter Yeah, because if you live in countries like ours, you ain't getting enough. So yeah, stuff like that.
lyle: Well, it turns out that that blue Monday was a marketing scheme [00:53:00] thing. Uh, yeah, it was done by a travel agency, um, to really encourage people to book holidays this time of year, which I'm all for.
I like that idea, but it's really okay. It is pseudoscience, but. We're talking about it. I mean, we, we thought, Oh, this is coming up. It's a great time to talk about these, you know, really these conditions. And so I guess it's a net benefit there. And maybe if Subliminally makes us book a trip somewhere, I'm, I'm fine with that too.
beyond brave: I know a lot of people
lyle: have gone on holiday this January.
josh: Yeah, I think a lot of people are
lyle: doing it. I'm just doing, okay, where can we plan to go right now? It's January in Canada. We got to get the hell out of here.
kyla: I was going to mention, I think a lot of our Canadian followers, I am, I enjoy accents and the way you say vitamin D versus the way we say vitamin D.
Have [00:54:00] you, have you ever heard?
josh: You guys, you guys say all weird. At least I've got the. I live in England, so I can say English thing. Yeah, that's about it. Take the eye out of things as well over that side of the Atlantic. Yeah, really interesting. He's like, there's an I in aluminium. Give me the aluminium foil.
No, I'll give it to you when you say it properly.
kyla: Did you just say
lyle: it? Aluminium.
kyla: No, stop. Really? Oh, there's an I in
lyle: it!
kyla: I should have just come up with a whole list of Canadian words that Josh pronounces properly. Yeah,
josh: if you want. Who knows? Yeah, I joke with my friends over that side of the Atlantic. I actually said agoraphobia.
We say agrophobia over here. So I did. I wanted to be noted that there was consideration in that. Through gritted teeth.
lyle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, well, it's a Canadian, so I'll [00:55:00] just give him this one.
kyla: I, uh, I wanted your take, I, I don't know, maybe a lot of people relate to this. Uh, I want your take on anxiety versus depression and if they typically coexist or is it more commonly separate?
Like I find. As someone who has suffered from an anxiety disorder, I can't comprehend depression. I don't feel I've ever felt depression, but I know others who I feel they've told me they don't understand anxiety, but they have depression. Do they commonly coexist or are they majority separate?
josh: Yeah, they can coexist.
They can exist separately. Um, depression is when you feel usually dictated by a very harsh inner critic. Um, you feel quite hopeless and nihilistic. You struggle to see, uh, a balanced kind of perspective of things. You start to see things in very black and white, binary ways. [00:56:00] Um, whilst having that inner critic constantly.
Saying you're either, you're a burden, what's the point, things like that. It's a feeling of numbness and emptiness. Yes, it can come with tears and sadness, but actually a lot of people with depression feel nothing. Um, which is a frightening thing. Uh, and yes, that can overlap with anxiety disorders. And, you know, when you get people like me saying, you know, you've got to do exposure therapy.
But then you're depressed and you haven't, you feel like, oh, I've got this internal critic shouting at me all day. I have got no energy, what's the point? Yeah, it can be sticky, you know, and that's where sometimes I do kind of say, you know, if the depression is quite severe, you know, definitely talk to your doctor and medication can help with that.
Um, different ways. Sometimes you can have just a genetic disposition and feel depressed. Sometimes you can feel depressed because you're anxious. Sometimes you can feel depressed because you grew up in a rubbish household with, and you've been on the wrong side of trauma [00:57:00] and abuse. Maybe your self esteem is rock bottom.
Maybe you're dealing with chronic illness. Uh, and things that are debilitating. Maybe you're going through a temporary depression, which is maybe you're going through a divorce. Maybe you're grieving. That's depression. When you wake up, when you feel like, what's the point in the middle of, of, of, of grieving, or when you're stressed as, as a, as a, as a medical mom, then that is also depression.
It's just not clinical depression. Clinical depression is when it doesn't abate. But we all know what depression feels like. We've all felt like, what's the point? I feel nothing and numb, but usually it passes. Um, but when that feeling sticks around, that's when it starts to go into clinical depression.
Yes, they can overlap with anxiety disorders. Definitely.
kyla: Yeah, that is clarity I needed. Thank you.
lyle: That's interesting because I think I'm going through a lot of that right now. I know you, Kyla, don't quite experience it as much as I do. And there's one, that inner critic piece, [00:58:00] like you mentioned, Uh, is, uh, Is that this you use the same strategies as anxiety, you know, okay.
This
beyond brave: is, this is just my
lyle: inner critic being way too hard on myself right now.
josh: Yeah. So as a therapist, I'd look at more of the roots of depression and self esteem anxiety. That's when the therapists do get nosy. So I'm like, well, where did you learn that? Where'd that critical voice come from? Where exactly at what point did you learn that?
You know, for me, I had a strong critical voice. I still do have a strong critical voice, but it's not as strong as it was, as it once was, and it was from being bullied in school. From having a disinterested parent, from doing things like that, survivor guilt, stuff like that, and it all compounds. And as a therapist, I'd unpick that a bit and be like, hold on, this isn't actually my voice.
Your voice is what you'd say to a loved one or a friend. But the key to that for self esteem, esteem driven depression is why can't I turn that voice that I would say [00:59:00] to a friend, with sincerity, why can't I say that to myself, and as a therapist, I'd look for those barriers there. Or the rules don't apply to me, I'm like, why?
That's stupid, you know, and then we look at those barriers and it's often you do some deep work about and this is how I feel about myself. I don't deserve to feel this way because of an amalgamation of our experiences when we're younger sometimes. Sometimes, you know, sometimes we can just feel depressed because of simple, simple things.
You know, I felt depressed when I lost my brother. I was like, why am I here and he's dead? I feel depressed, but sometimes it can be deeper. Like actually how I grew up was horrible.
beyond brave: Yeah.
lyle: That really resonates with me. Uh, it's like to be able to say, why can't I talk to myself the way I would talk to help Kyle out?
Right. But it's also been, I wouldn't say it's beneficial, but it's nice to know that. Like you said, there's a difference between clinical depression [01:00:00] and I think what I'm going through because in the back of my head, if I, if I'm depressed, I know, well, of course you are. Your, your daughter just died.
beyond brave: Um,
lyle: it's.
It's okay. And it makes me really empathetic for people that suffer from clinical depression who don't have that to maybe lean on the, it's a little, it's way harder to explain for them and it's harder to justify.
josh: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. And it's like going back to optimization. I think a lot of what people don't ask themselves enough is.
Is what I'm feeling right now, exactly what I should be feeling right now.
kyla: I, um, that brings me to a real important question I've had from a lot of close family and friends. And myself, too, for my husband Lyle. In, in relation to anxiety, when you were someone, cause I've had a friend, a [01:01:00] best friend tell me this, that they don't have anxiety, but they, They wanna know how best to support someone who does a loved one, who does.
josh: Oh yeah. So if they don't struggle with, with day-to-day anxiety. Yeah. Um, everyone knows what anxiety feels like. Mm-hmm . Ask them what they were like in their driving test. Ask them to know what at a job interview, a first date dentist appointment. Yeah. You know how you felt there waiting for outside the job interview.
Terrified before that exam. Yeah. Anxiety is that feeling. But just day to day that I can't shake, you know, and I'm not creating it myself So you can tap into that empathy It's literally threatened fear. So to to help someone you encourage them be like wow I know you're feeling anxious right now and we've gone out for dinner, but you're doing that whilst anxious.
That's literally bravery you're going toe to toe with fear and [01:02:00] Doing it anyway, that's really courageous of you to do that. Um, don't, if you want to support someone with anxiety, it's okay to suggest now and then, but don't try to fix as your first. What is it with humans? Like, I'm struggling with anxiety.
Have you tried this, this, this? Why don't you just be present and be like, yeah, all right, okay. What do you want to do with your anxiety? Believe in them. Convey your belief in the person. The opposite of conveying belief in a person is giving them 10 solutions to something that they're probably already on top of.
kyla: Exactly.
lyle: You're not a big fan of like, what do they call it? Search engine optimization. Those top 10 lists. That's all you ever pull whenever you Google something because it's like, why is it always 10? Why could it be nine? Maybe like,
kyla: yeah, there's
lyle: a big red flag there right away.
kyla: Yeah. Yeah. What would you, what would be your best advice for like kids with anxiety or for like the caregivers of [01:03:00] kiddos and like, you don't want to, like, maybe you have a parent who's just like, Oh yes, my child suffers from anxiety disorder, or maybe they've been clinically diagnosed.
Is that possible? How do you help them? What's.
josh: Uh, lots of kids get anxiety. I just say you can conceptualize it. Like, oh, that's just. You know, that's just the thing we all have. And, and, you know, it was telling you can't do it, but you can, you encourage them, you bring them, you surround them with praise. You tell them how brave they're being, tell them that feeling doesn't let go, uh, isn't there forever.
You talk, you listen, you know, it's so powerful. I've had people come to me for anxiety in here and. They've had diagnosis of panic disorder, OCD, whatever. They've come in, they've just spoke solidly for 50 minutes. I've said about four words and they feel amazing and they go away and they don't have a panic.
Cause just the power of being heard and empathized [01:04:00] with this can be really powerful, you know, and they kind of solved it themselves. And I'm like, and they were like, that was amazing. I was like, I didn't really do anything,
beyond brave: but I did,
josh: I did. I sat and I listened to some people. That's nice. And when, if a kid's feeling anxious and alone with that anxiety, step into that world with them and that can do a whole lot of work as well.
kyla: Yeah. Just giving them the time to listen.
lyle: Yeah. I think that kind of brings us to the, like, and you maybe have already answered it. Yeah. What you kind of, you kind of, kind of like to wrap up. I do
kyla: like to wrap up.
lyle: And you've said it, I think twice now. I'm just like, Oh, that's so perfect.
kyla: You have. Yeah. I often, I think you have, but, um, I often ask our guests, what does beyond brave mean to you?
If you would,
lyle: or what does bravery mean? Yeah.
kyla: Yeah.
josh: What's being beyond brave, uh, turning up and doing stuff anyway, even when you're anxious. I think that's, that is beyond brave. You're literally. Going toe to toe with fear, even if it feels mundane, [01:05:00] you know, like, Oh, well, I got up and I took the kids to school and I went to the shop and I was anxious.
That's amazing. You did that with a threat response far enough. That must have been bananas. You did really well. That's beyond brave. Don't compare yourself to others. Yeah, but this guy's jumping out of a plane. Well, good for him. If you, if it's, if your threat response is firing off and you're choosing to do stuff anyway, that's brave.
lyle: That's cool. I, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. It's been revelatory. I think one, it was the, the soothing, uh, voice.
kyla: Yes. Have you been told that? Like seriously?
lyle: Or does that take training?
josh: Yeah. From people who don't know me. Yeah. My mates. Uh, say a lot of other horrible things, but yeah, definitely.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
lyle: Yeah. That and, and some amazing things to say besides that the content was really well. It was done.
josh: Oh, good. I'm happy. And the dog was well behaved [01:06:00] for most of it.
kyla: Adorable. Yes. Yeah. Uh, before we let you go, can you let our listeners know where they can find you and your, your valuable resources you have to share with us?
josh: Yeah, so, uh, uh, Joshua Fletcher, you can Google it, Anxiety Josh, um, if you're a fan of the movie Inside Out or Inside Out 2, you'll like my latest book called And How Does That Make You Feel? It's an educational comedy. About being in the mind of a therapist and in the therapy room and I show you how I work with four clients with different presenting Presentations of anxiety and it's a if you like laughing and then crying and then laughing again.
It's the book for you Yeah, and I've got resources disordered podcast free resource everything I know is in there Don't hide anything behind paywalls do not, you know fall for the people that are offering paywalls And I have a magic technique that will get rid of [01:07:00] everything. No No Uh, uh, yeah, it's all there if, if you want to hear more dulcet tones of a Northern English man.
Um, yeah, but thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. And it was lovely to, to speak to you guys for now.
kyla: This was great. We, I can't thank you enough. I'm going to have this on repeat cause I love it. And I love the reminders. They're so needed and valuable. Thanks Josh so much.
josh: Yeah. Thanks, Carla.
Thanks a lot.
kyla: Okay. Take care.
Thank you, Bravelings, for tuning in all the way to the end of this episode with Josh Fletcher. I really, really hope that you found some very valuable insight with this episode with Josh. And, um, you can find all of Josh's links in the show notes, all of his, uh, social handles and his [01:08:00] books. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, that always helps, and share this episode with who you think might really need it.
Uh, thanks again for listening, we will see you next time on Beyond Brave, and please always do your best to stay brave.
Have you regrouped?
Okay.
